In an exclusive interview with La Croix, U.S. theologian William Cavanaugh discussed the challenges the next pope will face, emphasizing the deep divides within the Catholic Church. Cavanaugh questioned the narrative that Pope Francis has been particularly divisive, stating, “I really don’t think Pope Francis has been any more divisive than other popes.” He also pointed to the rise of nationalism as a key issue, calling it “a religion of substitution.” Cavanaugh, who is also professor at DePaul University in Chicago, warned against the church being instrumentalized by political movements, stressing, “The church must never be instrumentalized by any form of nationalism.” The conclave, starting May 7, will choose the next pope.
La Croix: Many observers describe Pope Francis’ pontificate as divisive. Where do you see the main fault lines within the Church today?
William Cavanaugh: Before I answer, I want to be clear: I really don’t think Pope Francis has been any more divisive than other popes. I lived in Latin America when John Paul II cracked down on liberation theology and replaced bishops close to the people with staunch conservatives. That went on for a generation. It was extremely polarizing. There was also serious tension under Paul VI with Humanae Vitae, the encyclical condemning artificial contraception.
The narrative that Francis has been especially divisive and that we now need a “unity pope” strikes me as deeply suspicious. Behind these calls for unity, there are often plain power struggles. Many of those now championing “unity” simply want a return to the way things were—when they held the reins of ecclesial power. For them, unity just means “unity on my terms.”
So what, in your view, are the real dividing lines within the Catholic Church today?
There are obvious geographic divisions. We saw that with Fiducia Supplicans, the decree allowed blessings for same-sex couples. The African bishops basically said, “That’s not happening here.” And Francis let them opt out. Questions of sexuality and gender identity resonate very differently in Africa than in Europe or the United States.
But the deeper divide may be between those who emphasize doctrine and those, like Francis, who emphasize a pastoral approach. Francis believed that to proclaim the Gospel, you first have to listen to people and meet them where they are. Only after reaching their hearts can you start talking about doctrine.
Doctrinal clarity versus pastoral mercy?
Exactly. His critics fault him for a lack of doctrinal clarity, while his supporters praise his emphasis on compassion. These are two conflicting visions of the Church’s mission—and today, they’re clashing out in the open.
In your work, you’ve written about modern forms of idolatry. What do you see as the most dangerous idols facing the Church today?
In my most recent book, I dedicate chapters to nationalism and consumerism. Nationalism—whether religious or secular—is a major temptation for many believers. It’s a true form of idolatry: substituting the nation for God as the ultimate object of devotion.
So the issue goes deeper than the “Christian nationalism” we hear so much about?
Absolutely. People tend to think the problem with Christian nationalism is the “Christian” part. But it’s the nationalism itself that’s the problem. It’s just as dangerous—maybe more so—when it comes in supposedly secular forms. But of course, it’s never really secular. It’s a kind of worship, a substitute religion.
In the U.S., some Christians, seeing the church’s decline, believe they can reverse the trend through political power—electing the “right people,” appointing the “right judges” who will “de-secularize” the country through law, and “end wokeness.” But if the church wants to be faithful to the Gospel, it must always maintain some distance from coercive power.
How can the next pope address the rise of nationalism without alienating part of the faithful?
To me, nationalism is a dangerous form of popular religion. And the Catholic Church has taken clear stands on this in the past. Think of Pope Pius XI’s condemnation of Action Française—he was unequivocal. And for good reason. Action Française was a blatant attempt to co-opt the Church for political ends. Pius XI was right to oppose it.
That comparison will resonate with French readers…
At the time, many were shocked that Pius XI would alienate the church’s best allies in France. Likewise, people are surprised when Pope Francis distances himself from figures like J.D. Vance, who invoked Thomas Aquinas’s Ordo Amoris to justify American immigration policy. Francis rightly countered with the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Gospel calls us to step outside our familiar social circles and extend compassion to those on the margins. The Samaritan crossed boundaries to care for the wounded Jew. The next pope must continue affirming that the Church must never be instrumentalized by any form of nationalism. The very universality of Catholicism, which is what the word “catholic” means, is at stake.
What do you see as the major challenges facing the Church and the next pope?
The biggest challenge, I think, is the emptying of churches—not just in the Global North, in Europe and North America, but also in Latin America. There’s a huge drop in both the number of people identifying as Catholic and those attending Mass regularly. Even in Africa, many Catholics are turning to Pentecostal churches. This mix of declining credibility, deepening secularization, and massive shifts in social norms is likely the next pope’s greatest challenge.
Any predictions for the conclave? Could a North American finally become pope?
I don’t think an American pope is a good idea. Americans already have too much power in the world (laughs). What strikes me is that you never really know who you’re electing when you pick a pope. I suspect many cardinals who voted for Bergoglio wouldn’t have done so if they’d known the kind of pope he would become. That’s happened before. Pius IX was elected as a progressive, then turned ultra-conservative after the 1848 revolutions. John XXIII was supposed to be a placeholder pope, and he ended up launching Vatican II. So really, anything can happen.
